Travel and Success: How Anna Lundberg's Eat, Pray, Love Moment Reshaped Her Life

Whether you’re working your 9:00 to 5:00 with your sights set on starting a business, or you’ve got the business machine rolling, chances are you have an idea of what success means to you. Anna Lundberg is here to turn your definition on its head. It’s time to rethink success so we can experience more joy and fulfillment. All that and more here on Women Conquer Business.

Hello, and welcome to the Women Conquer Business podcast featuring discussions with your host Jen McFarland. Every week I discuss a different aspect of building a business while balancing it with incredibly busy life. I share experiences, successes, and failures and answer questions submitted by you the listener. Thanks for tuning in. let’s get started.

Anna Lundberg is the founder of One Step Outside, where she helps people around the world build businesses and create a lifestyle that allows them and unimagined sense of freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment. Since leaving her corporate job in 2013, she’s now reimagining what success looks like. And she’s passionate about inspiring and supporting others to do the same. She’s the host of Reimagining Success podcast, and the author of Leaving the Corporate 9 to 5: Stories from people who’ve done it (and how you can too). Please welcome Anna to the show.

So why don’t we talk about you? What was it that led you to go on your big travels, and how did it change you?

Well, I think I was lucky in a way that I traveled a lot when I was younger, but for whatever reason, I got into a bit of a comfort zone. Wouldn’t go to the details of my studies and so, but I ended up settling in Geneva in Switzerland, first to do a master’s degree. And then I ended up, as I say, working and then marketing in a corporate big American company. And I traveled, but it was that kind of holiday, you know, work hard play hard kind of escaping the reality of your job and more weekends and so on. So it was more travel as a tourist, I suppose. Whereas when I was younger, I’d like to think that I did a bit more adventurous stuff. I went camping in America when I was 13, 14. Went caving and backpacking and [inaudible] rafting, and I took a gap year when I was 18.

And so I think actually, the first trip was, I want to say, 2012. Funnily enough, I had seen an advert for Disney Princess marathon in Florida. And I posted on Facebook and said, “Hey, he wants to run this with me?” And one of my school friends said, “Yes,” She lived in Florida. And so we met up/. We ran a half marathon, just as– I was actually just as a pilot. but in combination with this, I actually met up with another uni friend from England in Central America. And again, I have no idea why we decided to do this. But we had two weeks to travel across sort of four countries from Guatemala through to Costa Rica, I think I ended up in, and that just gave me a bit of a taste for traveling a bit more, I guess, alternatively, to just going to the south of France to the beach, and so on. And that was 2012. And 2013 was my so-called big travel. In that I asked my boss for a sabbatical. So I got three months off to travel across South America, which is something I’ve been saying for a while. I really wanted to do it. Again, sorry for the Disney references that are coming to mind, but there was this some [inaudible] film up. And this little kid goes, Adventure is out there,” and that was sort of my slogan that. I needed to fly off with a big bunch of balloons off to South America, and that was going to give me everything that I was looking for at the time in my life. So that was 2013 the first sort of big kind of backpacking trip by myself, having not learned so much Spanish. I had a bit of basic language knowledge, but everyone said how brave and courageous I was to head off, so off I went.
Wow, that is so cool. And I love the movie up. That is–

The first five minutes make me cry every time.

Every time, every time. so inspirational. And so what was the coolest part about that trip, about that sabbatical
for so many things. I mean– well, the reason I wanted to go, I guess, was the typical, kind of, “I want to see Machu Picchu, I booked Galapagos, and there’s the [Lado?], or you need the salt flats in Bolivia, and–” but it was really everything around it, it was the people I met, it was the fact that I was going off and being brave by myself. And there were some hairy moments along the way, I had so much time to think, reflect and sort of dream about what I wanted to do, career-wise, in life and all sorts. And it was just– another time, I also started a blog, that was, sort of, the very first inkling of what then later became a platform for my business. But it was just such a rich experience, of course, going to the different countries, seeing all these amazing things, but it was really the space I had to think about the meaning of life and to meet all these people who were in very different paths to me, and just opened up my perspective and all the possibilities that I’d forgotten about, I guess, in my little bubble, in the luxury world of Geneva and Switzerland.

Yeah, yeah. And it changed you. It changed the direction of your life, didn’t it?

Yes. And it’s so hard. People always ask me, “What was the moment?'” and “What was it that–?” there was no sort of massive trigger, but, of course, it was that trip that did it. So I’ve been talking for a long time about wanting to travel and I asked my boss, and then she said, “Yes.” And then, I traveled [laughter]. I guess it gave me a bit of an idea that actually I can do some of these things I’ve been dreaming of. And it’s not just one of those, “Oh, I wish I could.” and I also had the goal of writing more, and I had some vague notion of wanting to maybe start a business, but I have to admit that I had no idea what that meant at the time. And, and halfway through that trip, my boss started emailing about possible assignments to come back to because at that company, you had two-year roles, and you’d move on, so I was due to come back to something and I was just so uncomfortable with the idea of going back into one of these roles, and I just thought I’d been dreaming about living on an island and writing and traveling more and being independent, and suddenly the harsh reality of coming back to sort of a normal job and in Geneva or London, I think it was at the time kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. So lots of, again, the self-reflection and crying and talking to everyone I knew trying to have someone tell me that yes, it is a good idea to quit without any kind of plan [laughter], and, of course, nobody told me that. But somehow it was– and I look back literally at this moment, as you said, it’s a life-changing moment. It was the first time, possibly ever, but definitely, long time that I really followed my intuition over and above the kind of– we always do list of pros and cons and really think rationally about, sort of, “Is this a good idea?” and “What about money and career and so on.” and it was the first and possibly only time I really made a massively intuitive decision and really was the best decision I ever made. So yeah, but that trip is definitely crucial, both in my career and my personal development.

Wow, that is so awesome to hear all of it. I think part of it is that you had the bravery to take that step, that first step to put on that backpack and go, right, and then at the end of it, you’re like, “I deserve more.” and it seems like you took the second big step.

Yeah, and it’s funny that you mentioned bravery because I was just talking to someone, [I did say?] he’s saying, “I don’t sort of associate with the word bravery. And I didn’t feel– I mean, I loved people telling me I was brave and courageous and daring, and I love that still, obviously nice badge to be wearing, but it’s just– I don’t know, once you’ve bought the ticket then you’re going. It’s not bravery. It’s just inevitable [laughter]. You just take the decision. And then you have to buy a backpack, you have to pack, you have to travel, you have to learn Spanish, likewise, once you’ve made the decision to quit, it just kind of rolls on from there. It’s the transition. It’s that pivotal moment when you haven’t yet made the decision. That’s the most stressful. Oh, I was making a decision the other day when I had the same, that it was just weighing so heavily on me. But once I’d gone, “No, this is what I’m going to do.” suddenly, poof, the weight is lifted. It doesn’t require any courage, actually, it just happens really organically. So it is just that moment before you make the decision and somehow that I think human beings are very resilient and adaptable, so our psyches will somehow justify any decision we make and turn it into the right one, which is quite liberating. So there is no right answer, as I like to say now. There’s just different alternatives, and once you’ve made the decision, you’re sort of shifting onto one path or into one parallel universe, but it’s not to say that it’s better or worse even, which is quite empowering.

Yes. And I always like to tell my friends and my clients there’s more than one right answer. There–
Yes. Either there’s no right answer, or there’s many right answers, right. Different ways of looking at it.
Yeah. Either the quote, right answer is there are no right answer or you have so many choices, and you have to think about the thing that is best for you, or you have to feel into it and have that intuitive moment where you just know what you’re supposed to do. And what I think is the most beautiful part of your story is that you listened, meaning you listened to yourself, and you did it anyway even though everybody said, “Why would you? Oh my God. Why would you quit your job? That’s insane.” Or whatever, and you were like, “No, this is what I need to do.” And I’m going to do that. And I think that that is really brave, and I don’t know what the other words are because I can’t think of any right now, but they’re– It takes courage to do that and there are a lot of people who wouldn’t take that step because it’s certainly an easier path, I think, to in some ways to follow the crowd because–

It is easier, and sorry to interrupt, but it’s so much easier in a way but, ultimately it’s actually harder because I can’t–

I mean, I don’t want to get all sort of– I don’t know, ecstatic about this. I’m feeling very positive in the moment, but I just think I feel so much lighter and empowered and creative and autonomous and free and so on. You know, the comfort zone, and I talk about this and it’s the name of my company is based on that. It was my coaching model that I developed during my program and so on, but it’s not so comfortable, actually. I think that situation, and it still happens to me now, of wanting to do one thing and not doing anything about it. Deep down knowing that you want to leave to travel, to meet someone, to write a book, to whatever the goal is, and then to just not do anything about it. Just keep making excuses and telling people why you can’t do it. Telling yourself why you can’t do it. That’s an incredibly painful and uncomfortable place to be. And for me, being in that job, as incredible as it was, as much as I was learning, it was well-paid, I had incredible colleagues and so on, there was a massive disconnect between– I thought I should be over here doing this, and I’m over here. And yet I was not doing anything to take steps to move there, and that’s really uncomfortable position to be in. So again ironically, sort of you think it’s an easier path, but little do you know that if you just took that little step, yes, of course it’s harder because you won’t be then following. You’re not on that conveyor belt anymore. You’re not just doing– plodding along, doing what’s expected. You do have to begin to make your own decisions, but it gets easier and easier as you go, and again, it’s just such a wonderful freeing experience to be able to make those choices. And it applies to– often it ricochets off into different areas of your life. You make decisions about travel that affects your career, affects your personal life, your love life, your health, all sorts. So it’s incredible what can happen when you take a few different decisions, perhaps, than you have been so far.

I totally agree [laughter]. Because I was really miserable in my job before I just said, “You know what? I was not meant to do this. I was not meant to live a life like this.” And then I just did my own thing. And is it hard sometimes? Yes. Is it not what I thought it would be sometimes? Yes. Do I feel miserable all the time? No. I don’t. Like even in the hardest times, it’s so much more fun and so much more freeing and I have so much more energy than before when I was doing what I thought that I should be doing or what I had to be doing. And I think that there are a lot of people in this world who live a life that they believe they have to live, instead of the life that they were born to live.
Yes. Absolutely. And it’s a bit the Emperor’s New Clothes, I find. I just think like hang on, am I the only person feeling that this shouldn’t be the way we’re living our life? And it’s just very strange world where sort of society has made something a norm that just isn’t very natural, and I think a massive thing that helped me obviously again was traveling and getting out of it, but meeting other ppl, and you suddenly realize this whole world, whether you’re listening to a podcast or joining a Facebook group or going to some event or conference. You suddenly realize, hang on. Those people are doing something very different, and maybe some of the assumptions I’ve been making aren’t necessarily the only reality that exists.

So what happened next? So you started a business and you developed a model. Do you want to talk a little bit about the work that you do and how that works?

Yes. I mean, I laughed because it just sounded so simple, the way you said it.

I know, right? You start a business and developed a model.

Started a business, and developed a model. [crosstalk].

Yeah. That’s how it was, right? It was like magic. It was like Disney, right? Like you had a fairy godmother come and she like devised the model and you just talk about it.

Unfortunately–

No? That’s not– [laughter]?

But it did, as I said there have been twists and turns, as I say, and as Steve Jobs, I think, said, when you look back, you connect the dots. It’ll make sense. But it does take time. And again now actually, as I was saying, I do support clients through that transition of leaving the corporate 9:00 to 5:00. And it takes a lot longer than you realize. The first decision you make isn’t necessarily going to be the one that you stick with forever, and it takes a lot of exploration and development and so on, and hopefully we’re in this for the long haul so we have plenty of time to experiment and explore and evolve and so on. But actually as I said when I left, I had only a very vague idea of what I wanted to do, so I was still very easily led by what other people were saying and I was invited for whatever reason. Recruiters sensed that I was unemployed and they invited me to interview for various jobs, and I got very close to taking up a similar role in a different company. I just thought that, oh, maybe if I did digital marketing in an exciting industry like film or chocolate or coffee– They were the ones that I was going to interviews for. Maybe if I worked at Disney, then I would love this job. And one of the interviews I got down to the final two and I thought, “No, no, no. This isn’t what I quit. This isn’t what I want to do.” And then I think on the 11th of February, I want to say, 2014, I founded my consultancy, which is literally you paid £11 at Companies House here in England and that was it, I’d started a business. And it did in a way– It was quite easy in the sense that I very quickly got– I had a couple of friends who were creating a startup and they gave me a little project to work with them. I had a fantastic network of people who’d been at Procter & Gamble, where I’d been working. And because digital, which is my area, was still at the time and probably still is now to some extent, but it definitely then was quite rare in terms of a skill set. People sort of thought of me when they were looking for digital help, so I got some really good big contracts with big companies very quickly, so I sort of hit the ground running. However again, that wasn’t quite why I wanted to leave. I had just fallen into the same jobs. It was a great step in the right direction. I had so much more freedom of flexibility. I was my own boss. Between contracts I would take time off to travel, actually, but I was still very much tied to clients’ offices. I effectively had a boss within that role. I was still stressed and working overtime and so on, so I kind of quit that in so much as you can quit working for yourself, and then I went through what I like to call my hippy phase, which is when I was sort of traveling around. I discovered coaching and again I forget how, I think I was just going through again this personal development. I was so interested in reading and exploring my own career choices and so on. I found this course and it was a two-year certification program and I completed it in six months because I loved it so much. And then, I had my website up the next day saying,”[Hutuh?], I’m a coach.” And obviously, if you have started a business, then you know that that’s not quite how it works either. You can’t just put up a website and say, “Hello, I’m a coach” and suddenly the clients come flowing. And so what’s happened since then, is I’ve gone through, again, some twists and turns. And I’m actually bringing back quite a bit of my branding, marketing, business background, combining that with the more life coaching piece. And that’s become a really strong proposition for me now, and it just makes sense. So again, connecting the dots backwards, it makes sense, but I had to go through the phase of going too far to one extreme, going too far to the other. And now I’m sort of pivoting back into the middle and finding a really nice balance, say. And the model that we mentioned was then doing that coaching program. And we had to develop our own coaching model and tools and things. And I came up with– well, I found the quote, “Everything you’ve ever wanted is one step outside your comfort zone.” And that’s a lot of what we’re talking about, especially at the beginning of that transition. It’s growing, it’s learning, it’s travel, it’s adventures. I wanted to say, “I started the company one step outside,” which is my coaching now. And then, now that I’ve been doing that three, four years and it’s really sort of got into a good flow, and I have a couple of great programs. I work individually with clients. I’ve written a book. I’ve got a podcast now and it’s all sort of fitting really nicely together. So just to show people, I guess, who are at the beginning of this journey, that potentially, it can take some time. So now, well, it’s yeah, five almost six years really that it’s taken to have these various twists and turns, and to get to a place where I feel very confident, and I’ve got a vision, and I know where things are going.

No, and I totally hear you. I’ve done the same thing where I, excuse me, where I left my corporate job and then swung one way to doing graphic design which is what I had done previously. And then, now I’ve taken it in another direction to doing– actually, closer to what I was doing at the job that I left. But doing it instead for women and solopreneurs to help them set up their businesses using business analysis and strategies and tools. So It does take a little bit of time. I mean, I think for me, it was that I was so unhappy in that job that I didn’t think I could possibly continue to do that work, right. And then, as time went on I was like, “Oh, wait.” And I started to really parse out the different parts that still resonated with me versus the situations that I was in and the people that were making me feel miserable. And it just takes time to do that. And sometimes you can’t make that decision right away and live with it. Because otherwise, you’re just creating the same situation that you left, like you said. And we just have to be careful about that. You can’t just become your own worst boss [laughter] that was just like you had before or whatever.

Absolutely. But I think there is a phase that we go through and a lot of us– I mean, I am not one of the people who hates my job. Some people really hate it and want to leave, and some of us just leave for other reasons. And so I never hated it so much, but I really went through that phase of rejecting what I’d been doing before, just like you. And there’s a phase for that. But then, after a while, we lose some of that kind of rebellion and we think, “Hang on. These are actually useful skills.” We don’t have to turn up completely on that. It’s not sensible to make a complete break and then start from there. And there are ways, as you said, to work with the different clients, or audience, or position in a different way, or whatever you can do to make it a better fit with your values. For the [last?], I want to leave and say– once I think yes, then maybe a phase of wanting to rebel completely, but we don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say. And there are lots of transferrable skills, experiences, network expertise, and so on, that can be really powerful whatever you decide to do then in the future. If only as a transition, to sort of smooth smoothen the process to get to where you really want to get to.

No. I love that. I think that that’s great. And I love that you talk about travel. Before we started the interview we talked about how big the United States is and how there are so many people who don’t even have a passport that live here. One of the things that I encourage people to do because our country, the US, is so large is you don’t even have to travel that far to encounter something different from the life that you lead. And I think that oftentimes people are like, “Well, I don’t have the money to go to Machu Picchu,” and all of these things. And the reality is whether you’re in Europe or in the United States or somewhere else, get in your car, go somewhere different that you’ve never been before and you’re going to encounter something that might open your eyes to something new.

Yes. And I always say that to people, too. I mean, a lot of people– and, again, we’re very privileged. Certainly, in the company where I was working in Geneva did have the money to do it so it was more the fear and so on that was holding them back. But there’s no reason to take a year off to find yourself in Bali. Or you don’t have to climb Machu Picchu or Everest, whatever it is. You can just take a weekend off or go down to the countryside or to the beach or just whatever helps you to sort of [center?] yourself. Sign up to some course, or join a local group or anything. Just do something a little bit outside of your comfort zone. Travel within your own country. Even our small country has a lot of areas that I haven’t been to. And, as you said, you can see so much, you can be inspired, you can meet people. And it’s fantastic. So definitely it’s not just about sort of again doing kind of big, luxury, extravagant holidays and trips. It can happen in small moments in conversations with people.

Absolutely. And I think a lot of times we lead these digital lives and we end up with people who think the way that we do and agree with everything that we say. When in-person interactions are, for some people, outside of the comfort zone, right? And that’s kind of where that magic happens where you learn something new and can do something different. So with that in mind do you have anything that you can share about your work? I think that there are a lot of people right now who are listening who are like, “That’s me [laughter].” So what have you seen among your clients? And what are you offering right now?

Well, what have I seen? Yeah. I mean, in terms of– there’s so many commonalities and I hate that and I imagine that people will resonate with a lot of what we said. And it’s hard now to remember how I was feeling because it may seem now so obvious that I’m doing what I’m doing, But, again, I had no idea. I was in no way entrepreneurial by nature or by experience or anything. I wasn’t, as I said, brave, courageous, and so on and so forth. I can do this, you can, too. You just have to sort of swallow your ego a little bit. Accept that there’ll be maybe some compromises and there’ll be ups and downs. And you need to ask for help sometimes. It won’t always be easy but it is such a freeing experience. It’s a bit like The Matrix, as well, isn’t it? Sort of radical [people?]. You just have to take that decision. You can live in the blissful sort of comfort zone of knowing that there’s– well, maybe not knowing that there’s something out there. And that’s fine, too. But if you do want to take whichever of the pills– I always forget which one [laughter] is the one that gives you the, let’s see, the sane Wonderland. Then that’s where things get interesting. So I think the first thing is always just to make a decision. Because, again, the most uncomfortable thing for me is to want to do something and not do anything about it. So 100% if you aren’t ready for this, if you don’t think it’s the right time, if you never want to do it, then hurrah for you [laughter]. Celebrate that. It’s such a huge relief just to let go and say, “You know what? No, it’s not for me. I’m happy in my job. I’m going to stay here in this country,” whatever it is, this relationship and so on. However, if you are interested and you have gotten [inaudible], if you’re reaching burnout or if you just don’t [inaudible] aligned anymore with the job, if you think there’s something else out there, if you want to write a book, if you want to travel, whatever those sort of latent dreams are, I suppose, that’s where things get interesting. And as we’ve said, getting out of your comfort zone a little bit, whether it’s just a little weekend away, or traveling a bit longer can be great, and getting out into just new environments with new people. And I think podcasts are a great way, by the way, to immerse yourself in a totally different– when I wanted to write a book, I would listen to podcasts for authors. I joined Facebook groups for authors and suddenly something that seemed really theoretical and like, “Oh, maybe I could– what if I– maybe– Oh, I can’t–” becomes, “Okay, I’m doing this. How do I do it?” and it becomes much more practical. So I think the first stage is just exploring, opening your eyes, giving yourself time to really experiment and think about what you might want to do. Because the hardest part of this whole process is working out what you want to do, the how will fall into place. Once you know the what and why it’s so important to you, then you can work with a coach or you can sign up to a course, or you can– whatever it is you need to do. But in the meantime, you need to decide. That’s the beauty of it, as I say what success looks like for you. And then you can figure out how to get there after that.

So yeah, so as I said, I work with two groups, I guess, one group is this one that we’re talking about me, kind of, six years ago, the mid-career professional, he’s waking up to be, “Hang on a second, there must be more.” often that we want something more meaningful. I think as we get older, we want to sort of leave a legacy behind, we want to make a difference and not just do PowerPoint presentations and excel sheets. And we feel like we’ve been mis-sold a little bit from school and university. We were told this is the dream, to have this successful job in a prestigious company. And so and it isn’t as fulfilling as we thought. So that’s one group. And then the second group is sort of early-stage entrepreneurs freelancers and so on who have taken that leap. But still, as we said, it takes longer than we think. So getting the kind of strategy, the branding, the marketing, the business model and so and in place to really give you, as I said, the freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment that you were hoping for when you first started. And I do that, as I said, by individual coaching. I have a couple of great programs and I have a book which– so, to answer your question [laughter], if someone isn’t about the beginning, and the book is called leaving the corporate nine to five, and it’s a collection of 50 stories of people who’ve done this. So not just me, not just you, people have gone through all sorts of doubts and fears, and struggles. And they’ve either changed a different sector, or they’ve started up as a freelancer started the business, or some combination of those, or like me, they’ve just taken a leap of faith. And I think, hopefully, that book really both inspires people to see all the possibilities and also give some really concrete tips that could be applicable. You might find, if you’re a lawyer, there’s a lawyer in there, or if you dream of doing this, and there’s probably someone in the book who shares your dream as well, so I think that’s a really good resource to start with. If you’re just at the beginning of the journey, you just want a little bit of inspiration and a bit of practical guidance as to where to start.

I think that’s fantastic. Do you want to share a little bit about your podcast?

Yes, sure. So the podcast– so last year, I had three goals. I had Learn to Migrate program, and finishing my book, and launch the podcast. And as you can imagine, you can’t do all those three things in one day. But I managed to somehow space throughout through the years. So I launched my first group program last spring, and then I finished the book in time for my birthday in October, and the podcast was sort of December. I thought, “Okay, this is my goal for 2018. I have to do it now.” So I managed to get it out in December. And I’ve been loving it so much, and it’s beginning to pick up and in such a great way, another way to speak to people. Clearly, people listening to this will appreciate this, I think, on the go, and you can– I listen to so many podcasts when I’m doing my laundry or going for a walk or– whatever it might be. So it’s called Reimagining Success With Anna Limburg. And it’s a lot about this kind of leaving the nine to five and setting up your own business, but it’s really much bigger. It’s called reimagining success. Because really, that’s so much broader, it’s questioning the conventional definitions we may be grown up with from our parents, from school, from society, and just envisioning something different for ourselves. So there are a lot of different aspects. Again, by sort of big-picture inspiration and visions they want, and also very concrete tools and tips as to how you might be able to practically implement some of these things as well.

That is so great. And I’m assuming it’s on iTunes, where else can people find it?

Yeah, so iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, I think, lots of other places as well. So hopefully, it’s where you’re listening to the podcast. And if not, you can also listen, I have all the episodes on the website. So reimaginingsuccesspodcast.com.
Fantastic. And we’ll be sure to put that in the show notes so everybody can get to it. How else can people reach you?
So again, my company is called One Step Outside. So that’s basically where you usually find me, onestepoutside.com. I have a, I say, fantastic Facebook group. It is fantastic because of the people in it. So if you search for One Step Outside on Facebook, you should be able to find that it’s a really lovely [inaudible], again, a great place to start with people supporting, cheering you on, you can share your questions, your wins, and I’m also in there every week doing free training sessions and so on. So, onestepoutside.com and One Step Outside on the Facebook group as well.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you. Such a pleasure. I hope it gave people a few things to think about.

Oh, yeah, it’s great. Thank you. [music]

Thank you for listening to the Women Conquer Business podcast. You can find us online at www.Jenmcfarland.com/podcast. You can also connect with Jen on social media at Jen S. McFarland on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn. The show was produced in Portland, Oregon by Jen McFarland Consulting. Women Conquer Business is available on iTunes, Google podcasts, Spotify, and many other podcast apps. [music]